Kay:
Hey there, family, and welcome back to the Kay & Shi Show.
Shi:
This week we’re going tough stuff. We’re talking all things like tough conversations, tough business situations, tough motivational moments, and tough moments of leadership. We’re excited to get into the tough stuff this week.
Kay:
Look in the 19 years of business that we have had we have experienced so many hard things and we’ve learned a whole lot along the way.
Shi:
We’ve also made a lot of mistakes along the way, blew our emotional lid a couple of times. Okay, a lot of times…
Kay:
A lot of times.
Shi:
….along the way and have just had some fall on our face moments. And we want to share a little bit of all of those with you this week because we think when we are able to talk about the tough stuff, we can help others have it not quite so tough.
Kay:
So today in part one, we’re going to talk about hard conversations. Now, chances are, if you’re a human being, you have experienced a difficult conversation at some point in your journey.
Shi:
Right. The fact that we have business experience has given us more opportunity for exposure to these hard conversations, but you’ve had them as well as Kay just mentioned. These are those conversations where it’s time to address a friend about misaligned values. It’s the time when you have to go over feedback and critical input from a supervisor, or maybe you are in the management position and you’re having to give that to somebody else, or maybe you’re even having to fire someone or let them go or talk to a loved one about a tough situation or a difference of opinions. All of these are examples of hard conversations and I know in the past I look back and there’s some of them, I shake my head about like, man, I could have handled that a lot better.
Kay:
You know, one of the words that are coming forward to me in this is recalibration. Hard conversations happen in times of recalibration. Like Shila just said, if it’s talking to the loved one about misaligned values, that’s recalibrating back to either being on the same page or walking in separate directions. Recalibrating the expectations of a relationship, especially in the workplace is this breeding ground for hard conversations
Shi:
Right. So, out of the hard conversations that we’ve had, one thing that has been clear and of course, you know we are eternal optimists so we’re always coming at you with that “the good news is,” and silver lining approach that every time after you have one, especially when it’s been productive, you feel so much better. It’s like what we call the pressure valve has been released. Everyone feels back in alignment, back in vibration, back in agreement, and in frequency, and understood, and heard. That’s the goal and you feel better afterward. So, we’re always looking to try and see through the tough part of that and on the other side of that relief and that realignment which can help motivate us to go into the hard conversation I think with the right mindset.
Kay:
So, what’s the worst thing that you can do in regard to a hard conversation? Not have one. If you avoid a hard conversation it ends up creating dissonance and terrible energy that just sits inside of you without that form of expression. Now, what we know about energy that sits inside–especially negative energy–is that it’ll simmer, simmer, simmer, simmer until you hit a boiling point and then a hard conversation becomes a full-on blowout when it didn’t necessarily need to get to that point in the first place.
Shi:
Right. There’s that difference between responding and reacting and the more you can go into response mode, the better you’ll feel after and the more relief you’ll get like we were talking about. So, one of the ways that we found can be helpful going into that hard conversation and with that right mentality is one, have it written down the key points that you need to make. Have that with you and in front of you, ideally, especially if it’s in a work environment, you’re going to have some kind of paper or documentation to accompany your conversation. But know what it is precisely the points you need to make because if you just think in general terms I need to talk to this person about that behavior. Then afterward you might think, “Oh, I forgot the really important perspective about,” or the piece of, or one of those things and now the hard conversation can’t just be solved and has to be continued or continued to be resented and nobody wants that. So, know what you want to say going into a hard conversation and then we’ve found it best to say plainly the hardest part at the very beginning of the meeting. It’s kind of that rip-off Band-Aid approach, but whatever it is that is the hard consequence, the tough thing, the real essence and crux of the issue you’re bringing forward, say it early and say it plainly.
Kay:
Now, there is a lot of rhetoric out there around kind of what is known in the corporate world as ‘the compliment sandwich.’ Giving them something loving and then giving them the hard part and then loving on them again. But what we found is that oftentimes people can’t even get past any bit of loving anything, or they feel like that other shoe is going to drop. So, bringing forward that most difficult piece upfront and up first and then allowing the conversation to be about working through the solution versus attempting to sugarcoat or pre-sugar the difficult pill to swallow.
Shi:
You think about the energetic stance of what the word ‘but’ does and you’ve heard about this a lot and if you’ve followed us, you know we’re big advocates for switching the word ‘but’ with ‘and.’ But if you think about how you use that word, you could say, look, “You’re a really great worker but you’re always late and that’s impeding on your performance”. The tone of that conversation has now become the disempowering second half of that sentence and the first half is ignored. Whereas if you just change the order of it, the energetic signature is different. “You’re often late, which is affecting your performance, but you’re a really good server.” We still used the word ‘but,’ but we allowed the hard part to come first. And then the second piece to come in and allow us to express or have the final landing point of our expression be our overall belief in the person or the relationship or the challenge at hand and makes it a more productive landing. So, you can think about that energetic shift of just putting the hard part first allows you to bring that nice part forward or that dimension forward that demonstrates the good part before you pass them the ball because that’s inevitably what’s coming next.
Kay:
So, a reminder on the three main points around hard conversations.
- Have them, don’t avoid them.
- Say the hard thing first and then allow the conversation to be about the solution and
- Use inclusive language like the word ‘and’ versus exclusive language like the word ‘but’ that stops you energetically in your tracks.
Next up we’re going to talk about negotiating.
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Shi:
Alright, up next in this segment we’re talking about negotiating because it’s tough stuff week here on the Kay & Shi Show and negotiating especially for fellow women out there can often be a really tough subject.
Kay:
Many of us have the idea that if we negotiate that we’re not grateful for the things that we have or the things that we’ve been given, and for many of us, this stops our power in its tracks before we even have the opportunity to advocate for what we really want.
Shi:
There’s this interesting kind of balance or I think issue that happens within many of us, which is we want to demonstrate that we’re grateful. We want to work hard and show our gratitude for what is. We don’t want to seem like we’re taking for granted all of the opportunities that are in front of us and those are the kinds of notions that can often get in the way of somebody deciding or realizing or acknowledging that it’s time to as the word of the last segment recalibrate maybe a business relationship, maybe a professional relationship. Maybe even if you have young children like I do, or under the age of 15, like Kay and I do, you know that negotiating happens a lot in the household as well. So, being able to navigate this kind of territory and not use justifications like, “Well, I should just be grateful for what I have,” actually can empower you to make those negotiations happen and ultimately feel better and get a better result.
Kay:
Any time that you have two parties coming together over shared responsibility, negotiating takes place. This could be the negotiation of household duties between a husband and a wife. This could be the negotiating of iPad time like Shila mentioned with kids. This could be the negotiating of a salary with a worker, or it could be the negotiation of a contract if you’re a contracted employee or even somebody who does work from a contract basis. So, negotiating takes place in all kinds of places in our lives. In fact, Shi, we once saw someone who we respect very much negotiate dinner reservations.
Shi:
It was the funniest thing. We were down in Miami and this individual called to see if he could get a reservation for a party of 11 at 7:30. We could only hear obviously our side of the conversation, but it went something like this: “I’d like to get a reservation for a party of 11 at 7:30. Oh, but you could do it at seven? Okay. Could you do it at 7:15? Alright. Well, if you can do it at 7:15, can’t you just do it at 7:30? Well, you could do it if we’re a party of nine. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re just a party of nine.” Lo and behold we had just witnessed a dinner reservation get negotiated. Of course, we showed up with 11 people–the two chairs were added. It was not a big deal but that was one of those moments where we were like, “Look, this skill can literally be applied anywhere.”
Kay:
It truly can. Anytime that you have something on the table that you are looking to advocate for, negotiating can come and be in your corner. So, it’s not something that you have to attach negative consequences to, even though sometimes it makes some of us feel a little icky.
Shi:
It can and definitely make us feel that way, especially if we are not used to it. So, getting exposure to negotiation is one of the best ways to learn how to be comfortable with it and so we would encourage you to not shy away from these moments when you need to negotiate for yourself whether it be for money or for time or for protection or sanity or any of those things. Now, when it comes to business and professional types of negotiating–going to go ahead and separate that out from the family negotiations here–we have really found that often what is on your heart is you want to just say the very best terms of a deal that you’re willing to give to the person because you want to demonstrate your level of commitment to the deal or commitment to paying as much as you can and valuing the worth. But what we found is that when you start with your very best, we don’t have any room to go up from there, which is often what the other party expects. So, whatever you bring forward, you’re typically going to expect to get some kind of counter-offer. So, you want to take your maximum of what you’re willing to give and then just give it that kind of little bit of shave so that you have the ability to go up if you need to.
Kay:
What I love about this principle is that you’re understanding what you want before you come into the conversation. What is the maximum that you’re willing to give or the minimum that you’re willing to accept? And you understand where you stand before you go into the negotiation. Now, we don’t have time to jump fully into it today, but don’t we do this oftentimes when we negotiate with ourselves. If we come from a place where we don’t know what we want, and then your mind starts trying to negotiate you away from that workout or negotiate you away from the healthy meal or negotiate you away from something constructive for you. If you don’t know what you want and aren’t rooted in that, oftentimes you lose the battle.
Shi:
You know, another interesting perspective on that is you often come at yourself with the top expectation and don’t give yourself that 10% rule which then doesn’t allow you to say… If you’re like, well, the top goal is to run a marathon, let’s just say that anything short of that can feel like a failure. But saying, okay, if that’s the goal, can I run 10 miles this week? Can I chunk that down? Can I look at that in a different way? Just like you would with a negotiation where you’re going to present all of those fronts with logical thoughts and plans to yourself, and bringing forward ultimately–Kay, what you were just highlighting–that clarity piece which is key when it comes to negotiating.
Kay:
So, the next up here on the Kay & Shi Show–we’re in tough stuff week–we’re going to talk about motivation blocks and what to do when you come up against them.
Shi:
See you then.
Kay:
Do you love hanging out with Shila and me?
Shi:
Do you love hearing inspirational speeches and great talks?
Kay:
Well, we are the speakers for you.
Shi:
We love to come into organizations and groups and add value through giving a presentation that leaves the audience delighted and full of new knowledge.
Kay:
Now, if you have an organization that maybe has an event coming up and you’re looking for speakers, we want to come and talk to your group.
Shi:
Yeah. Just keep us in mind next time you hear at that chamber event or a mixer or something that an organization is looking for speakers to come in and present. We would love that opportunity to serve, and we know we’d wow the audience.
Kay:
If you want to know a little bit more about our speaking engagements and see some of the testimonials of people who have hired us to come into their organizations, we invite you to go to kayandshi.com. That’s k-a-y-a-n-d-s-h-i.com to see what they’re saying.
Shi:
Thanks, everybody.
Kay:
Okay. Here on tough staff week, we have covered hard conversations, negotiating, and today we’re going to go over what to do when your motivation comes up against a hard wall.
Shi:
Motivation for all of us is one of those triggers that is pretty important to us getting done what we need to get done. Now there are people who talk about motivation then there are the anti-motivation people, but let’s just all come to the understanding that motivation as we’re going to understand it here today is having that internal drive to actually take the action or achieve the thing that you said you were going to do even if you don’t feel like it. So, that motivation piece is that drive to do it and that means that we can be missing this in all kinds of different realms of our lives.
Kay:
Now, if you’re a human being chances are you’ve come against the feeling of, I don’t want to. It’s actually making me think of… there’s a song that’s like, “I don’t really want to do the work today. I don’t really want to do the work today.” And I think all of us can relate with having motivation blocks especially when things get hard.
Shi:
Well, that’s when it definitely gets challenging because when things are going well it can be easy to feed off of that positive momentum to fuel ourselves forward and a lot of folks at that moment might deal with some of those sabotage issues and we could probably even classify those into motivation blocks. I know for me, personally, sister Shila here, that when I’m feeling like I’m lacking in motivation I start to have that almost desperation feeling like this is going to last forever. I’ve lost it. I’m not the real kind of person who does this and you get in that mode of like, it’s never coming back. Then later when you do feel motivated and you’re achieving a list and you’re getting it done, and you’re doing your chores at home and you got that little pep in your step and you’re feeling motivated those are those moments where I’m reminding myself like, “Hey, the next time you’re feeling so desperate that your motivation has gone, remember that it ebbs and flows.” That’s what I know I’ve been focusing on lately when it comes to motivation blocks.
Kay:
That’s so beautiful because I think many of us can get into the trap of thinking that it’s gone forever or “I’m just not a motivated person,” and that can be a really difficult place to be in because that level of desperation oftentimes can lead to depression or anxiety, and you don’t take the action that you know that taking will make you feel better. Then afterward you start to have that mounting list of things that are going or things that you have to do which can actually decrease your motivation instead of helping you to get things done.
Shi:
Another way that I know we both find really helpful in terms of keeping our motivation strong is having something to work towards. Now, best practice is, if you read “Atomic Habits,” you’ll know you’re really wanting to work towards building an identity. So rather than run the marathon the goal should be to become a marathon runner. But we have found that having certain carrots on sticks in front of us from a neuroscience perspective and from a personal motivation perspective helps a lot. Having a trip that you are trying to be in shape for. Having an exciting, fun adventure that you are working towards and you’re imagining when you go, the inbox is clear, and the things are done, and the house is clean, and all of those things help keep you motivated through some of those more mundane day to day things.
Kay:
So, if maybe you are sitting in the space of desperation and you’re like, man, I don’t have anything on the horizon and I just don’t know how to get myself motivated. One really easy thing that you can do if you haven’t done it already is to just make a list. Look, you don’t have to check off anything.
Shi:
A to-do list.
Kay:
You don’t have to do that list. You don’t have to even start that list. But if you just create the list and write it down, understanding what the roadmap ahead looks like helps to just increase your level of motivation because now it’s not the insurmountable ghost in the shadows.
Shi:
Right.
Kay:
It’s the beast you know, and you can start tackling things one at a time.
Shi:
Gosh, I love that advice and I also love that both of us practice trying to couple things we don’t necessarily love with things that we do love in order to find the motivation to do them easier. The easiest example, of course, is that I love to watch junk TV shows while I run my miles on the treadmill every morning. But that’s my time that I get to watch “Marvelous Mrs. Maisel” and “The Morning Show” and “Ted Lasso” and keep up a little bit on pop culture. So, we hope you’ve enjoyed talking tough stuff, motivation blocks and for the final installment, we’re going to be talking about crises in leadership.
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Kay:
Okay, family, we’re here in the last installment of tough stuff week and today we’re talking about something that, frankly, I kind of wish we had less experience in because we’re talking about crisis leadership.
Shi:
We were the active leaders of a restaurant company for almost a decade as the active leaders. We were part of the restaurant leadership and management for 19 years, and we still are leadership to some extent because we’re co-chairs of the board and we work closely with the CEO. But now we have that CEO who is really the active leader of the restaurant business. But let us tell you, in those 19 years of leadership in the restaurant space, and then in a marketing agency, and in personal growth and development company, among many other projects and partners, we’ve seen a lot of crises, obviously none bigger than the pandemic. That was every crisis combined so we’ll touch on that in a second. But just talking about crisis leadership, in general, is something that I think, unfortunately, you only learn through experience and absorbing and learning from others experiences as well.
Kay:
Now, crisis leadership isn’t isolated to the business environment. Oftentimes a family can come into crisis. A difficult situation can come forward within a friend group and people have to take leadership, take ownership, and find a way to navigate through it. So, crisis leadership is not only to the organizations or communities that are led from an official capacity but also from more social constructs, like a family.
Shi:
That’s a really good shade to bring forward and I’m so glad you did and you think about when you’re having one of those really serious moments with your significant other, or if you’re a younger audience listener when you’re having that serious moment with a parent. When one person in that relationship takes a leadership and ownership stance and takes control in a constructive way, it changes the whole outcome of the conversation. We’ve all been in it where no one steps up and both people protect themselves, and jab for each other, and go for the pain, and that isn’t what we’re talking about when it’s productive. But even in those relationship interactions that you might call a crisis in a relationship when there’s strong leadership in place, it can make the difference between success and failure.
Kay:
Shila and I like to call this MIHI energy which stands for Move I’ll Handle It. When somebody comes forward in the relationship and says, “Move, I will go forward and handle it,” and kind of that physical expression of pushing someone out of the way, stepping forward into what is the fray of whatever the crisis is at that time. But anyone who steps forward with MIHI energy in the time of crisis becomes the natural leader. But boy is MIHI energy helpful when you’re in pretty much any form of crisis situation.
Shi:
Out of the 100 people one of them gets MIHI energy and says, “Move, I’ll handle it,” and they walk to the front, and they take charge, and they start calling shots from the front of the line. All other 99 people are grateful, are relieved, are ready to serve and maybe they don’t always necessarily agree with the decisions, but we’re talking about crisis leadership. Something active is happening in front of us. Something is unfolding in the present moment and influence and decisions need to be made right now. That’s that kind of crisis leadership. So, let’s talk about our biggest crisis leadership mode which was the pandemic. And we’ve said in lots of interviews that you could take all of our experience from the 17 years before pandemic, and it would pale in comparison to the two years of restaurant ownership during the pandemic. There was so much crisis on so many different layers that being leaders through that..the one thing that I came out of that saying was, “Thank goodness I wasn’t alone.” I was so glad I got to lead alongside you, Kay, and to have somebody that we could just have our trust tree together and that partnership really saved me as an individual and I know you feel the same way. So, we were really lucky, and a lot of people don’t have that.
Kay:
Yeah, there were occasions where we needed each other’s MIHI energy, or we would be strong in front of the team and leading from a place of strength and knowing and then get on the phone afterward and crumble in confidence. Let’s just take you back to March 17th of 2020, where overnight 85% of the revenue of our restaurant company completely went away, like gone. 85%. Now, if that was a one-week thing, we probably would’ve recovered very easily, but it wasn’t. It was a 12-week endeavor of that 85% loss in revenue. But that didn’t mean that the $65,000 bill to US Foods went away. That didn’t mean an 85% drop in our rent payments or our bills or an 85% drop in our labor force. We had to figure out how we could keep the lights on, keep our people employed and not lose our family legacy in the process.
Shi:
Now, I want to make sure that we clarify we’re humongous believers in being vulnerable and authentic in front of the team and so they knew that we had a level of, I think, severe focus on the outcome and could feel that intensity from us as their leaders. But what we didn’t want to show them was any kind of wavering in confidence or that we were despairing on behalf of them because we felt this immense and tremendous responsibility for the 200 families that rely on our businesses. We liked to say we wanted to be hopefully realistic and realistic and hopeful, and we wanted to have our realism be the peanut surrounded by chocolate in the middle of the peanut M&M so that we could have that hope and keep it going forward.
But it was important when everyone was scared for us to have that MIHI energy. I really think when I reflect back, those last two weeks of March, I had that energy. I was like, “We’ve got this, no problem. The whole world’s dealing with this,” but April for me is the darkest timeline. April 2020, there were just some really desperate days in there where our numbers were dismal, our bills were mounting. The certainty was at an all-time low in terms of any kind of financial government help and restaurants were dropping left and right. So, the question marks were so severe that it was hard to get through that and we just would lean on each other quite a bit during that while trying to maintain a lot of open communication with our team and help keep them bolstered and working towards good projects.
Kay:
Well, any leader within a crisis or any leader in a difficult situation–while yes, vulnerability is a good thing to display and to have with your team–if you’re in the middle of a crisis or a difficult situation, so are the people that you’re leading. So, giving them the burden of your emotions to bear in addition to the crisis can end up being unconstructive for everyone. Thinking about even leading our kids. Shi, your kids had a front-row seat to the drama of American entrepreneurship during the time of that crisis leadership and there were oftentimes where they would see your tears, but then you knew that they would have to hear your hope as well because they were afraid.
Shi:
They were. I’m sure you’re reflecting back on where you were during those months of March and April 2020 and all of us had to be leaders in our families or in our companies, or within our communities in different ways. Of course, we could do an hour-long episode about all the ways the pandemic changed our leadership approach and shifted our perspective around it. But really coming out of all of the crisis leadership moments, we’ve identified the fact that it’s helpful to have someone have that MIHI energy, Move I’ll Handle It. Even if it’s not always that you know what to do, you’re certain that you will do it and you will step up. That can make the real difference.
The other is being committed to seeing the result at the end of the tunnel and we laugh about an interview during those dark timeline months where the newspaper editor asked us, ”How long can you handle this?” And we kind of hairbrained said, “As long as it takes!” with desperation. But holding so much determination in our voices and having that level of determination can be the real difference maker. So, we hope you’ve enjoyed this rough, tough, rumble week here on the Kay & Shi Show. We sure enjoyed sharing with you some of our harder moments and more vulnerable spots.
Kay:
We hope that you’ve gained some value through hard conversations, negotiating, motivation blocks, and crisis leadership and we look forward to seeing you next week here on the Kay & Shi Show. Thanks, everybody.
